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Monday, June 20, 2005

Must Read for Ackers & Co

This from Powerline, is self explanatory, even for a leftie and should be compulsory reading for them all.
Marines in western Iraq made a sobering discovery yesterday that highlights the folly of those who decry "torture" at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo Bay:

Marines on an operation to eliminate insurgents that began Friday broke through the outside wall of a building in this small rural village to find a torture center equipped with electric wires, a noose, handcuffs, a 574-page jihad manual - and four beaten and shackled Iraqis.

One way you can distinguish a real torture center from an American detention facility is that in the real thing, people keep dying:

"They kill somebody every day," said Mr. Fathil, whose hands were so swollen he could not open a can of Coke offered to him by a marine. "They've killed a lot of people."


His town has always been a good place, he said, but the militants have made it hell.

"These few are destroying it," he said, his face streaked with tears. "Everybody they take, they kill. It's on a daily basis pretty much."

What do you think; do you suppose we need a lot more news stories about how a guard at Gitmo accidentally touched a Koran?

The liberals' public relations campaign against the American military and the Bush administration, based on the overblown Abu Ghraib story and the bogus Guantanamo Bay story, is a disgrace.
Update by AL @ 2:27pm: NY Times: Iraqis Found in Torture House Tell of Brutality of Insurgents

Posted by Adolf Fiinkensein | 6/20/2005 12:41:00 pm


Blogger Ackers1 said...

It amazes me that you should wish to excuse Abu Ghraib and Guantanamo considering the devastating effect they are having on Americas image particularly in the Islamic world. There is American public opinion to consider as well and this war is rapidly losing the legitimacy it needs to be sustained. Whilst your mate at NZ Pundit is featuring rather puerile I Love Gitmo postings the support needed to sustain this war is evaporating. It might make you feel good to huff and puff about liberal public relations campaigns but all I see is a foreign policy disaster which has led to an intractable low grade civil war of unending violence.

6/20/2005 02:56:00 pm  
Blogger Kimble said...

"which has led to an intractable low grade civil war of unending violence."

Ohhhhhh, gitmo caused 911. Wow thats news.

The war is hardly a civil one. For that to be true both sides would need to be made up of people from the same country. Most of the fighters in Iraq are increasingly foreign.

You hold the US to high standards, which is fine. I too expect the good guys to behave better than the baddies. Unfortunately you hold them to absurdly high standards. Standards that cannot be reached by anyone at war. And you compound this by refusing to apply even much lower standards to the enemy. This is what is called not being fair.

Do you really think that bad PR is the reason Jihads are launched? Because that is all Gitmo and AG are, PR blunders, not torture or proof of systematic sadism.

Do you really think that the insurgency is continuing because a few of their brothers in arms are being held (softly) in Gitmo?




If a Koran being flushed gets this much attention, surely anything even remotely like those mentioned above would get constant air play on Al Jazeera, CBS and CNN.

It is impossible to prove a negative. Why cant you conspiracy theorists understand that? How can 'no evidence' become proof of a cover-up?

You are a fool if you compare the US actions and the Jihadis and find Americas wanting.

6/20/2005 04:09:00 pm  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

whose hands were so swollen he could not open a can of Coke offered to him by a marine What sick fucks. Why can't Americans help out without trying to drive their corporations, and pushing American propaganda - after all Coke is one of the top American icons. What the hell was wrong with offering the poor guy some water and trying to be truely considerate.

And on the whole Gitmo vs other torture centres. It comes back to morals. The Americans have taken the moral high-ground in the whole affair. In choosing the moral high ground, they have to be squeaky clean on everything they do. It's like priests commiting crimes against boys - someone that has a stronger moral background deserves much more punishment than those that have not had as moral an upbringing. Likewise, countries that take the moral high ground have to maintain a clean image, otherwise they devalue the moralistic basis for going into Iraq in the first place. Just because it is war, it doesn't mean you have to sink to the levels of your enemy - in fact if you do, you have already lost.

6/20/2005 04:26:00 pm  
Blogger Roger said...

I agree with Bernard completely. I didn't even register on the Coke thing until he mentioned it.

6/20/2005 04:33:00 pm  
Blogger Ackers1 said...

Seeing as 9/11 had zero to do with Iraq Kimble I can't see what point you are trying to make here. To say most of the fighters in Iraq are increasingly foreign is accurate of course when you consider there are over 100,000 American troops in the country.

6/20/2005 04:41:00 pm  
Blogger Antarctic Lemur said...

Erm steady Bernard - Coke and other sugar drinks are consumed in large quantities in the States.

6/20/2005 04:54:00 pm  
Blogger Lucyna said...

If I'd been tortured for weeks on end and then saved from death and then saved by a marine, a coke would look #$%^! good to me. I truly doubt there was any corporation pushing, Bernard. It may have been all the marine had on him.

6/20/2005 04:55:00 pm  
Blogger Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Are you guys completely loopy? Yanks drink Coke. They use water for washing. Next thing you'll be complaining because they shot the enemy with American made rifles instead of the environmentally friendly and politically correct French made rifles. If that's the best you can do for intelligent comment then change the first line of our national anthem. God help New Zealand.

6/20/2005 05:01:00 pm  
Blogger GaryH said...

Bernard, Roger & Ackers1 - You guys really crack me up! I'll bet at least one of you is a stand-up comic. Your comments are so deviously contrived and so blatantly devoid of justifiable analogies that, like comedy, they are great for throw away humour, but contribute nothing to what is a serious situation.

6/20/2005 05:34:00 pm  
Blogger Kimble said...

ackers1 - " I can't see what point you are trying to make here."

That sounds like a personal problem to me.

I will try to use small words for ackers1.

911 spurred the war on terror. One of the reasons for the war in Iraq (asides from oil, WMDS, a family grudge of course) was Saddams support of terrorists (not necessarily Al Qaeda).

And if you really want to get technical, the US troop numbers is largely static, so the increase in foreign fighters must be happening on the other side. Either way my point is proven. The Americans arent fighting Americans so it isnt a civil war. Tard.

6/20/2005 06:08:00 pm  
Blogger Ackers1 said...

Some very tennuous reasoning here Kimble. One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter as they say. To say the war is hardly a civil one tells me you haven't been paying much attention. In fact it tells me you are completely ignorant as to what's happening in Iraq. it's pretty clear to those that have a brain that this is not a war between the Iraqi people and foreign jihadists but a guerilla war between competing factions within Iraq itself. The group that has been disenfranchised by the US invasion are the Sunnis and this is the group that makes up the bulk of the insurgents and they have the support of most Sunnis in the country. This still makes them a minority but enough to sustain an insurgency that isn't going away any time soon. They are supported by foreign jihadi but their numbers are still quite small. Every estimate I have seen is in the hundreds rather than 1000's and certainly nowhere near the number to give any credence to the argument you are making. The US don't have enough troops in the country to contain the insurgency so we are kind of at a stalemate where any legitimacy the US had is being bled away quite rapidly and the iraqi people are plummeting into even greater despair. The political process that many were trumpeting as a triumph for the country has been a disaster reinforcing sectarian divisions rather than bringing the country together with fresh hope for the future.

I hope my words have been small enough for your brain to cope.

I would like to offer something more hopeful but nothing I read lately leads me to think that Iraq is a good news story for either side of the political divide.

6/20/2005 07:23:00 pm  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

Spoil my fun folks - I'm too busy to put out well reasoned posts right now, so I've reverted to reactionary diatribe :)

6/20/2005 08:22:00 pm  
Blogger Antarctic Lemur said...

No, one mans terrorist is not the other mans freedom fighter. The identifiable desired outcomes of terrorists in Iraq are: restablishment of a Ba'athist regime; the installation of a Shite or Sunni theocracy; the creation of a repressive pan-Arab Islamofascist state; to make a quick buck out of kidnapping or violence; to score himself 7 fresh faced women in the afterlife by killing some non-believers. All of these people are wankers who need to be shot dead. And the sooner the better.

Take your terrorist loving elsewhere.

6/20/2005 08:38:00 pm  
Blogger Roger said...

I am not a stand up comedian but I play one in real life.

6/20/2005 09:01:00 pm  
Blogger Roger said...

Nelson Mandela - Terrorist or Freedom Fighter? Depends on your perspective.

6/20/2005 09:03:00 pm  
Blogger Ackers1 said...

Yes and I suspect we will end up with a Shite theocracy BECAUSE of the US invasion. It's got nothing to do with loving terrorists rather being smart enough to follow the consequences of your actions, something this administration has shown itself pretty well inept at doing.

6/20/2005 09:17:00 pm  
Blogger Kimble said...

"One mans terrorist is anothers freedom fighter as they say." - As you say. I have never been one for moral equivalence.

"a guerilla war between competing factions within Iraq itself" - Ah, ok so its a civil war when you ignore all the foreigners. Vietnam was a civil war then. And Korea.

"disenfranchised by the US invasion are the Sunnis" - Disenfranchised does not mean they cant win elections because the majority of people dont vote for them. It means that they are prohibited from voting. If you recall prohibiting voting was a specified aim of the insurgents.

"this is the group that makes up the bulk of the insurgents" - Not in debate. Rather the sunni force is steady (declining actually, there casualty rate would be disturbing if I gave a shit about them) and being bolstered by foreign jihadists.

"they have the support of most Sunnis in the country" - But not the support of Shiites, who, if you recall, make up the majority of the nation, and who were ruled by an unelected Sunni government for...mmmm... 30 years.

"has been a disaster reinforcing sectarian divisions" - Which translates to meaning, Shiites are represented, Kurds are represented, but Sunnis are no longer in charge and wielding unchecked power.

"rather than bringing the country together with fresh hope for the future." - Which would be exactly what life was like under Saddam, I assume. Shiites have a fresh hope for the future, Kurds have a fresh hope for the future, Sunnis have a fresh hope for the future (those that arent wanting to install Sharia law).

"but nothing I read lately leads me to think that Iraq is a good news story" - Must be a shill for big media then. Arthur Chrenkoff's [spelling?] good news from Iraq. Google it.

"Nelson Mandela - Terrorist or Freedom Fighter?" - He fought for the freedom of blacks. He is a freedom fighter. Robert Mugabe, Che Guevara, Castro, the Insurgents were and are fighting for freedom too. The freedom to oppress others.

"I suspect we will end up with a Shite theocracy" - Based on what? Pessimism?

6/20/2005 09:24:00 pm  
Blogger Ackers1 said...

I don't need to google Chrenkoff Kimble, I know him well and if you think this is a reflection of what's happening in Iraq you are as clueless as young Arthur himself. Actually, he's not clueless, he's a staffer for Queensland Liberal Senator, one of those enthusiastic coalition of the willing (as long as it's not my family) so has a very clear political agenda which he makes no attempt to hide. Fair enough but I prefer to get my information from the big media. And yes, Vietnam was a civil war and one side won by conventional military means in the end. Don't be surprised if the end result of this war is similar. Those of us old enough to have lived through both can see surpringly similar synergies despite the obvious differences.

6/20/2005 09:34:00 pm  
Blogger Kimble said...

Ah , a good old 60s hippy then?

You said you never read anything good about Iraq. I just pointed to where you could find some.

I KNOW that everything I see in the news is shaded by the journalists own biases. I NEVER take anything I see on TV or read in the papers at face value. I have seen enough of the insidious bias in Big News media to distrust EVERYTHING there.

Arthur also comes from somewhere that dealt with real oppression.

"and one side won by conventional military means in the end" - Yeah, you are clueless. You think this is a conventional war?

BTW what happened after Vietnam? I mean after America pulled out. Tell me how it was all sunshine and happiness. How can you think that America being defeated would be good for Iraqis?

And dont claim to "see" things that arent there, ie similar synergies (are you sure you meant that word). It wouldnt have taken two more sentences to elaborate on the point, your failure to do so gives me no confidence that you will be able to.

BTW if military historians cant find a similarity between Iraq and Vietnam, I fail to see how you can, but then again, they DO know more than you.

6/20/2005 11:38:00 pm  

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