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Thursday, June 30, 2005

TVNZ Tax Debate Liveblogging

I, RWDB, will be liveblogging the show (8:30 PM TV 1).

All updates will be in this post, which will stay on top until the end of the show. Press F5 to refresh.

8:30- The show is starting. Simon Dallow is good: Slightly less lefty than most other people at TVNZ.

Steve Maharey: Talking bollocks. Interest rates dropped under Reagan when he slashed tax.

The economist makes a good point about how the top 3% pay a huge proportion of tax. Shows what a huge effect on the economy the top rate has.

See Farrar? Looking very dapper.

Maharey being smarmy as usual and talking bollocks again: The economy grows despite government, not because of government.

Pretty pointless show so far: Just the usual talking points and bickering from the MPs.

Roger Kerr is correct: Aussie has lots more taxes but less tax overall, their tax freedom day is several weeks earlier as I recall.

Union man is also correct that wages are higher in aussie, that's nothing to do with unions, it's due to more investment in growing business. Where can you get money for that? Tax cuts for the rich! You'll make the BRT yet my good man!

Would be nice to hear from some non-union workers. Shame on the organisers for falling for the "all real workers are unionists" Marxist stereotyping.

The union man wants to work on business productivity. Being able to sack bad workers would be a good start but that's bad apparently.

Matt Robson: Business is good, as long as businesspeople don't get a chance to spend the rewards of their hard work. Git.

Finally people like Roger Kerr get to speak and makes good points. The lefty dullards are the only ones getting decent airtime.

Being bribed with your own money! Golly this programme is shallow.

Farrar squeezed some good points in.

Well that was really awful. "Trust government" idiocy ad nauseum from the left, only the repetition of very basic policy from the right, and no time at all given to discussion the virtues or otherwise of spending cuts in any areas.

Best contributor: Roger Kerr.

Worst contributor: The "I trust the government better than myself" guy.

Well that was the first time I've liveblogged. Not a great effort, next time I'll update more often, and pick something somewhere above "paint drying" level on the excitement meter. I was so sick of it towards the end that I just couldn't be bothered.

Posted by RightWingDeathBeast | 6/30/2005 09:30:00 PM

65 Comments:

Blogger Aaron Bhatnagar said...

Good job- I will be tuning in with two browser window open - one with yours, one with DPF's!

6/30/2005 08:17:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

good good, i flicked an email to ZT and AL asking if someone was going to be here :)

6/30/2005 08:33:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

i'd love to see company and the top two effective rates consolidated for consistency and to avoid any fiddling that can currently occur.

6/30/2005 08:35:00 PM  
Blogger Berend de Boer said...

First part already over, no live blogging. RWDB still alive??

6/30/2005 08:39:00 PM  
Blogger Berend de Boer said...

Ah, there he is, updating might perhaps happen only every few minutes or so??

6/30/2005 08:40:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

Who spoke after Copeland? His face was familiar but I couldn't place it.

6/30/2005 08:45:00 PM  
Blogger ZenTiger said...

Liked the comment that WAGES were HIGHER in Australia. That point might sink in with the viewers.

6/30/2005 08:52:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

The bank guy made a good point - the last time taxes went down in NZ, the total tax take went up because of increased growth.

If they had just let Rodney finish what he was saying half the time he could have explained everything to everyone.

6/30/2005 08:53:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

Wasn't David Farrar supposed to be live blogging? He didn't look like he was anywhere near a keyboard?

6/30/2005 08:53:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

Hah! Simon Dallow to Smarmy - "Now you're one of the biggest spenders in Government..." Lovely!

6/30/2005 08:58:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

Too many unionists! Get them off!

6/30/2005 08:59:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

What's with the two union patsies (steel and plastics) representing "workers"????

6/30/2005 09:00:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

What's with the Aussie stunned mullet???

6/30/2005 09:01:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

The unionists all talk about taxes and investment. We have had billions in investment in health with nothing produced.

6/30/2005 09:02:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

Matt Robson wants free edukashin. Moron.

6/30/2005 09:03:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

Steve Maharey has glinty eyes.

6/30/2005 09:05:00 PM  
Blogger ZenTiger said...

The debate nearly gets interesting and then they stop the discussion.

>> Lowering taxes stimulate growth

>> If businesses are successful it helps communities

>> We can fund cuts from surpluses + growth

>> 33% of spending goes to welfare, 40% to health and education

>> Some idiot said Public Service only represents 2% of population. That obviously includes children, pensioners and the pet cats and dogs. There are 300,000 public servants guys (including nurses, teachers etc)

6/30/2005 09:08:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

A quick google found this tax freedom day chart - Aussie appears to be a week before NZ. http://www.emigratenz.org/briefs/brief-04-05-11.html

6/30/2005 09:11:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

Tax cuts can help pay off student loans. Don't they realise that! They are all talking about inflationary aspects of it.

6/30/2005 09:12:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

Rod Donald, while explaining about bring the environment into the equation, looks like a frog! Those eyes! Am I the only one noticing the eyes?

6/30/2005 09:16:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

LOL Lucyna. Who was that pommy aircraft engineer? He cracked me up.

6/30/2005 09:17:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

Lucyna - looks like he's been sitting a little too close to Nandor for my liking. And what about the pommy aircraft engineer that trusts the Govt to spend his money!

6/30/2005 09:20:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

Rodney's chewing gum prop was good. His eyes were good too... John key .. if I could do hand signals too - he has to work on his eyes.

I must have missed the aircraft guy, Gooner.

6/30/2005 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger ZenTiger said...

Pommies believe we all need to suffer.

Pay tax so that the government wastes it. Obviously, England doesn't put enough into rugby and cricket. They seem crap at it.

6/30/2005 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

Oh no, I missed the aircraft guy! Oh well.

6/30/2005 09:21:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

I have a question.

If there is a $8 billion surplus (ie left over) and next year there is a (reduced) $4 billion surplus why doesn't that make it a total $12 billion surplus in two years?

6/30/2005 09:23:00 PM  
Blogger Adolf Fiinkensein said...

Fascinating. The Maori Party makes huge sense. They will be National Party coalition partners.

6/30/2005 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Aaron Bhatnagar said...

Frankly its a bloody mess. DPF has done well though. Key and Hide look good, although to be fair, Little from the EPMU looked controlled as well. Roger Kerr was measured too.

6/30/2005 09:24:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

Go the herald letter writer!

6/30/2005 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger Aaron Bhatnagar said...

Maori Party are an eye opener - whose side are they on? Left or right - it begs an interesting question....

6/30/2005 09:25:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

What's David Slack on about, he looks like he's churning up to something - but whatever it is only he understands it!

6/30/2005 09:26:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

I agree Adolf. Don't underestimate them.

6/30/2005 09:26:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

I don't know about the Maori Party Aaron, the Prof said something about POVERTY!!! Sounds like more welfare to me.

6/30/2005 09:27:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

But he did also mention 4-5 billion tax cuts, and he got cut off explaining something - so who knows what he would have said there.

6/30/2005 09:28:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

I've said it before Aaron, as has Adolf, they are the dark horse this election. They are not socialists. They support free enterprise and liberty 'cos they realise it's better for Maori.

6/30/2005 09:28:00 PM  
Blogger Aaron Bhatnagar said...

Sounds like Te ACT to me :-) (just kidding)

6/30/2005 09:29:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

The female economist is quite cute:)

6/30/2005 09:30:00 PM  
Blogger Adolf Fiinkensein said...

The left wingers got about 70% of the air time. Stage managed and pthetic.

6/30/2005 09:32:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

It was shallow, wasn't it RWDB? I was amazed when it was over, and even more amazed when I looked at my watch.

6/30/2005 09:34:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

I made a note of Starks (sp?) website that was listed, and it took you to a tax calculator http://www.optimisticpredictions.com/tax/ At first the site looked promising, until it started given you options to cut costs, and then it explains why you can't - for all of them. So, to me it sounds like a left-leaning shill trying to show that you can't cut taxes.

6/30/2005 09:35:00 PM  
Blogger Bernard Woolley said...

Smarmy also got a lot more airtime than John Key...

6/30/2005 09:36:00 PM  
Blogger Berend de Boer said...

My best contribution goes to DPF.

6/30/2005 09:37:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

The right won the debate though and put pay to the inflation arguement, those in greater receipt of cuts will actually engage in non-inflationary activity like saving, investing or reducing debt. Another Labour scare put to bed.

6/30/2005 09:37:00 PM  
Blogger Aaron Bhatnagar said...

Hurrah! Rugby and DPF was the winner.

How many votes were won or lost tonight? Probably zip each way?

6/30/2005 09:41:00 PM  
Blogger ZenTiger said...

Fluffy stuff. Probably not change a single voters mind (where-ever they stand). Thought Copeland and Kerr spoke well. The panel guy was pro-tax cuts and that may have helped.

Would have loved to see Rodney look to the Camera and say: "

Look every-one here has an opinion on what is best for you, watching at home. We have a surplus. We have government increasing spending. If your credit card debt is too high, or you are worried about your mortgage, then you KNOW you NEED a TAX CUT. The government will have to learn to budget like you have for the last 6 years. If you need a tax cut, vote for one. If you don't need a tax cut, then no problem. It's up to you, not us. Don't worry, money in your poclet still helps the economy. If you fix the leak, the plumber gets money. If you go out for dinner, the waiters get money. The government will still get 12.5% GST of all the money you keep anyway. They'll be able to pay their bills. Ask yourself - can you?"

Its that simple. My bet is 70% need the help. That's enough for National, ACT, UF, Maori Party to get in. They were the ones pushing cuts.

6/30/2005 09:45:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

Copeland did speak well. I doubt it swayed anyone unless there is a body of voters out there who actually worked out that National, Act, United Future, the Greens, the Maori Party and even Anderton's man were all advocating further tax cuts in one form or another.

The only ones that weren't were Maharey and the union bozzo's.

6/30/2005 09:50:00 PM  
Blogger ZenTiger said...

Good stuff RWDB. The live commenting saw you through. Having to concentrate on typing stopped me throwing up over the remote control every-time Maharey spake (and I chose that word deliberately).

6/30/2005 09:51:00 PM  
Blogger Ackers1 said...

"wages are higher in aussie, that's nothing to do with unions, it's due to more investment in growing business."

Yeh right. Just watch what happens once the new IR legislation passes through the Senate. Hopefully Australian workers won't be as gutless or eaily deluded as their kiwi counterparts and it won't happen the way it's shaping up to happen....

6/30/2005 09:54:00 PM  
Blogger Lucyna said...

I can't get over Rod Donald's eyes. He looked fervent, like if he could just get into power .. he could rule the world! I mean, solve everyone's problems. Very scary man.

6/30/2005 09:54:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

Yes Lucyna, the very man who would give tax cuts to corporates but dictate how it gets spent once given back! Scary, very scary.

6/30/2005 09:58:00 PM  
Blogger MikeE said...

I was *VERY* suprised by the maori party comment - though I am sure it was cut short and missing the end ie "we support tax cuts, but only if its spent on us" etc. I'd love to know what their official policy (if anything) is on the subject.

National to me seemed very impotent with the whole "we are pro tax cuts but won't confirm anything till election date" - didn't hold much credibility.

Rodney Hide should have been given much more airtime on this - he seemed to have the least, even less than the CTU guy.

And man... I'd hate to be on TV with "wrote letter to the editor" as my position.. hehe

Where were the non union workers?

and you gotta love Mr "I can't think for myself so I will give the govt all of my money to spend because I'm a fucking moron" at the end.

It could have been a very good hour, but instead turned into an hour long farce of soundbites with no real substance from the politicians - although the economists, business round table and business nz (to a lesser extent) all had very valid comments.

6/30/2005 09:59:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

Light-bulbs for f**k's sake, then man talked about frigging light-bulbs!

6/30/2005 10:00:00 PM  
Blogger Theprophet said...

I thought a bit more renforcement that the Cullen who should have been fronting wasn't there would have been good.
What - He was off having talks with NZ First?.Gee:)

Gooner - the surplus thing - The surplus that was talked about was minus Cullens Super $$$$$$.

All pretty boring really.
Good new Mudvane song on C4 though.

Allah protect us.

6/30/2005 10:00:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

Rod is the worst Green in parliament. Not a very nice man I've been told. He is quite dangerous too, in a communist type way.

6/30/2005 10:02:00 PM  
Blogger Peter McK said...

Although the unionists / socialists got the most air time it was a classic case of quantity - not quality - They proved how economically illiterate they really are.

The quality was very much the likes of Kerr, Key, Hide and the tax experts.

I think the socialists scored a c- and the Nats side about a b-.

Certainly the left did not score any points especially as Cullen was a wimp and did not front. Smarmy was very average and I felt out of touch (as is the whole Labour Party) with Mainstream NZ.

Remember 70% believe Tax cuts are in order.

6/30/2005 10:03:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

Mikee, in TVNZ-land there are only union workers like he moron you refer to. If I had been DPF I would have turned and given him a slap, he was poking the borax at the opposition for spending "his money" (probably all 50c of it)!

6/30/2005 10:04:00 PM  
Blogger Gooner said...

You have to move with the times. Labour hasn't realised that. They are still stuck in some 1950's timewarp.

6/30/2005 10:07:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

RWDB, Great effort with the live blogging, thanks!

6/30/2005 10:14:00 PM  
Blogger Too Right said...

Rod Donald is a meglomaniac - those commenting on the maniacal look in his eyes have picked it. This is from a former flatmate. Power has always been his thing and he absolutely craves getting it.

6/30/2005 10:25:00 PM  
Blogger ZenTiger said...

ackers1, we've already seen the effect of IR legislation on France, Germany and Sweden. They are starting to back pedal.

We've already seen the effects of tax cuts in countries that were economically smashed before hand - Russia, Latvia, Poland, Ireland and the effect has been positive.

In spite of what the Democrats spin, tax cuts brought in during Republican tenure in the US has been stimulatory.

Labour is right - we are heading for a slump. A serious slump. It will need a different approach to navigate it. Debating on wether to increase the core Public service by 10,000 workers rather than take off the extra 10,000 is not enough. We need serious tax cuts, business tax overhaul and some policy for growth that doesn't rely on increasing government spending by (Labours budget) 20 billion dollars over the next 4 years.

BTW: The core public sector bureaucracy the PSA guy was talking about is over 30,000 staff, and total government workers apparently 300,000 I think his 2% factoid is understated, if you look at the actual WORKING POOL of people who contribute in real tax dollars (therefore the rest of the govt funded staff do not count, the unemployed and sickness beneficiaries do not count, children and pensioners do not count and council workers do not count).

6/30/2005 10:48:00 PM  
Blogger Paul said...

Zen, the PSA guy I think was probably only counting his union members when he said that. Naturally they should be the first to go, followed quickly by the Families Commission, TPK, TEC, NZonAir, the Breastfeeding Authority, the race bit of the Human Rights Commission, NZQA, the Minisrty of Ethinck Affairs, the Ministry of Womens' Affairs, the Ministry of Yoof Affairs, and I'f like to add IRD but really shouldn't, they are probably listening.

6/30/2005 11:05:00 PM  
Blogger JamesP said...

Yep, that 2% figure sounded highly suspect to me to. But even if it is true, or almost true, it completely misses the point which is that savings will come from the vast sums of public money they administer not the relatively small salaries we give them to administer it.

6/30/2005 11:10:00 PM  
Blogger Ackers1 said...

we are talkling about different IR legislation here ZwnTiger. This is probably not the forum to discuss it. You guys are clearly on a high from tonight's debate and I have taken no part in it. You should continue discussing that as it is dear to your hearts and not mine.

We can engage another time.

6/30/2005 11:10:00 PM  
Blogger Jordan said...

Hilarious set of responses. Good on you, rwdb, for taking the time to live blog.

6/30/2005 11:26:00 PM  
Blogger Mellie said...

I think Steve Maharey was extremely restrained and presented a reasonable image - perhaps being a Minister he knew he was always going to get airtime if he kept his mouth shut for too long.

John Key however had smarmy all over. I've never seen him in public or in person before but I'm afraid he didn't come off very well at all. Will benefit from a second appearance to better prove his expertise in these matters.

I think it would have been a very different debate had Cullen been there. I suspect much more fiery and enjoyable but the whole lacked a little bite. I wasn't impressed with the end sequence of quotes and it's just asking for trouble having Maharey's quote last, no matter what he said.

Good on posting during the debate, I was actually quite interested in the whole thing and couldn't move away for the whole hour!

I do find it a little ironic however that a voter who comes out in public support of the govermnent is automatically branded some kind of hack. Could it be that not everyone hates the Labour party?

7/01/2005 08:07:00 PM  

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